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Captain Bob
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 posted on 10-28-2009 at 07:23 PM |
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Airline Pilots asleep?
The news readers are now telling us that the two NWA pilots had lost "situational awareness" during that recent flight and that is why they were out
of contact for over an hour and overshot their destination.
I have a very simple, inexpensive and 100% guaranteed solution for this problem:
Replace the crew seats with two worn-out coach-class seats like their passengers have to sit on. Then, put a third seat up there behind them. Make
sure that, on every flight, they have a screaming (or sick) kid sitting behind them.
That will keep them awake! ...uh, I mean Situationally Aware. 
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squakmeister
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![[*]](./images/xpsilver/default_icon.gif) posted on 10-28-2009 at 07:50 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Captain Bob
The news readers are now telling us that the two NWA pilots had lost "situational awareness" during that recent flight and that is why they were out
of contact for over an hour and overshot their destination. |
Yep, it is kind of hard to maintain "situational awareness" when you've go you head stuck up your posterior.
My recommendation for a solution is:
Put an Air Marshal in the cockpit wearing a pair of tastefully fashionable steel toed shoes.
Loosing their Pilots Certificate, getting fired from Northwest, and loosing their 6 digit income
is exactly what they deserve. Maybe they can find a couple of cabs to drive in New York City.
I look at their actions as a total and complete violation of trust.
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FireEscape
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 08:24 AM |
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The FAA yanked their pilot license, as the should...
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."
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WaterWings
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 09:42 AM |
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Not trying to defend their actions at all here BUT put yourselves in their shoes for just a moment.
You've done this a thousand times. The airplane is on autopilot, there is nothing to do but monitor a few dials which are all fine, the autopilot
follows the gps track so there is little or no navigation to do. The weather is sever clear. The ride is very smooth with just a faint sound of wind
noise in the background. In a word its...BORING and the perfect environment for dozing off.
Supposedly these guys were going over new flight schedules on their laptops.
Something to think about...that was a relatively short flight. Think about a cross country or overseas flight that would last twice or three times as
long in the air. Don't tell me you wouldn't doze off or close your eyes for a while after 10 hours of NOTHING.
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quickiemonster
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 09:50 AM |
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DWHUA
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Pogo
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 10:12 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by WaterWings
Supposedly these guys were going over new flight schedules on their laptops. |
We had this discussion yesterday at our breakfast table. My son was talking about the pilots being on their laptops and had read somewhere they were
older and not accustom to this particular program. I understood this. As someone who has returned to college after being out 30 years, I have found
myself so engrossed in my studies and the use of the internet that I completely lose track of time and my surroundings.
I'm not saying this is right, I'm just saying I really understand how this could happen. I'm sure many others can say the same thing has happened
to them.
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato
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squakmeister
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 10:40 AM |
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I was always taught, the primary function of a Co-pilot is to keep the Pilot from screwing up.
During this particular flight, the "Human Factor" aircraft system suffered a major malfunction.
Since this particular system is managed at the Corporate level rather than the maintenance level,
the failed system has simply been removed and replace.
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WaterWings
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 11:19 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by locknut
| Quote: | Originally posted by Pogo
We had this discussion yesterday at our breakfast table. My son was talking about the pilots being on their laptops and had read somewhere they were
older and not accustom to this particular program. I understood this. As someone who has returned to college after being out 30 years, I have found
myself so engrossed in my studies and the use of the internet that I completely lose track of time and my surroundings.
I'm not saying this is right, I'm just saying I really understand how this could happen. I'm sure many others can say the same thing has happened
to them. |
i don"t understand it.
not when you have TWO people in control of an aircraft flying 5 thousand feet in the air with 150 human lives seated directly behind you. sorry there
is no excuse IMO. |
Agreed there is no excuse and I was certainly not trying to make one for these guys. Just pointing out the biggest cause of accidents anywhere...the
"Human Factor".
Worse airline accident in history with the most lost of lives was due 100% to the "Human Factor" and occured on the ground.
Tenerife Airport Disaster
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster
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Pogo
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 11:24 AM |
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Oh no, I'm not saying it's right mainly because, as you said of all the lives that were in their care and their responsibility. This could've had
a tragic outcome.
I was just trying to say if they are older and trying to learn something new they could've been helping each other, completely zoned out and lost
track of their surroundings...that is NOT good...I do see how it could happen...seems flight schedules should be checked before and after flights, not
during so the pilots are not distracted.
Squak's analysis of the situation seems best so far! 
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato
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quickiemonster
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 05:09 PM |
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<b>[Censored]</b> happens.
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RE3
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 05:43 PM |
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IMHO, there is no excuse, whether you are young, old, learning something new, etc. to be that distracted while doing a job where the lives of others
(both in the air and on land) are entrusted to you. Both pilots were experienced enough to know better. They screwed up (thankfully without killing
anyone) and deserve to lose their careers. Period!
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mouth89
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 05:50 PM |
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I agree with some of the people that we have all lost track of time doing one thing or another... BUT how many of you have lost track of that much
time at your working environment? I don't know many people that sit at work and lose track of the time doing something that it not necessarily
pertinent to their jobs. NOT TO MENTION, their particular job consists of the safety of +/- 150 lives. I personally cannot see how with a co-pilot and
known responsibility that they flew off course for over an hour.... I could see maybe a few minutes.. but an hour...
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mouth89
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 05:51 PM |
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Another question.... if you are flying that much off course and over the schedules time... didn't the flight crew notice and the passengers begin to
question??
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WaterWings
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 06:23 PM |
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Mouth89 I believe one of the stewardesses finally did become concerned and called the cabin inquiring why they had not started the decent yet.
Regarding your other post... I regularly spend hours and hours on this forum while on the job. The hired help will tell you that's a good thing as it
keeps me out of their hair. No one has died yet from my inattention but several people want to know... what does he do anyway. 
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Randy
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 06:27 PM |
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5 thousand????? More like 37 thousand.
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Flyboy
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 08:40 PM |
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What happens when we get sleepy while driving a car? We pull over somewhere and take a short nap. There are no rest stops or side roads to pull off on
while airborne, and as WaterWings says, it sometimes does get boring.
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RE3
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| posted on 10-29-2009 at 09:49 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Flyboy
What happens when we get sleepy while driving a car? We pull over somewhere and take a short nap. There are no rest stops or side roads to pull off on
while airborne, and as WaterWings says, it sometimes does get boring. |
Maybe I missed something...but from what I understand, these guys were not sleepy or just simply bored. They CHOSE to both do something else other
than monitor the flight. Take turns, for craps sake, but don't both ignore your job at the same time! Doesn't seem too tough to figure out to me!
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LoonyToons
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| posted on 11-1-2009 at 10:03 AM |
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A while back there was a show about trains on Discovery or one of those.. The new locomotives have a lever, or button, or something, I don't recall
exactly, that has to be handled every so many seconds. If it isn't, alarms go off an other assorted stuff happens.. The idea being to keep the
engineer focused on his job..
Off to see the Lizard.....
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WaterWings
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| posted on 11-1-2009 at 10:31 AM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by LoonyToons
A while back there was a show about trains on Discovery or one of those.. The new locomotives have a lever, or button, or something, I don't recall
exactly, that has to be handled every so many seconds. If it isn't, alarms go off an other assorted stuff happens.. The idea being to keep the
engineer focused on his job.. |
I think that would be an excellent idea Loony. That's the whole problem in a nutshell. Technology has taken the pilots or "human factor" out of the
equation. Most of these planes can almost fly themselves, take off to complete landings. BUT when a command decision is required the pilot or human
needs to be totally aware of all factors. We have to give them something to do to keep them focused. You can scream all day long "they are
responsible for other's lives" but bottom line pilots, teachers, politicians, soldiers, etc etc are all still human and subject to failure.
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show-n-goh2o
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| posted on 11-1-2009 at 03:43 PM |
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Do people really think that one mistake should cost these guy's their career? Thats pretty harsh. Heck the weathermen get paid to make mistakes.. lol
03 Donzi 28 ZX twin 6.2's...
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail...but, a true friend will be
sitting next to you saying, "dam...that was fun! - Anonymous"
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RE3
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| posted on 11-1-2009 at 08:37 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by show-n-goh2o
Do people really think that one mistake should cost these guy's their career? Thats pretty harsh. |
In this case, yep! May be harsh but some how we need to hold people accountable for what they do. Again, IMHO they made a CHOICE to do something other
than their job, got caught and therefore need to acknowlege what they did wrong and accept the consequences for their actions. Unavoidable accidents
or mistakes are one thing. Conscious choices are another whole issue, IMHO....
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E_HILLMAN
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| posted on 11-1-2009 at 08:43 PM |
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Especially when it has to do with possibly hundreds and at least 10s of lives or anyones life for that matter.
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squakmeister
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 02:27 PM |
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What a lot of folks don't realize is:
By over-flying their destination by 150 miles and then having to go back, the aircraft had consumed much
of it's reserve fuel supply. I'm guessing they landed with less the :20 minutes of fuel left in their tanks.
Any type of delay back at their destination could have easily committed this aircraft to a gruesome crash.
That my friends, is inexcusable.
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WaterWings
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 03:16 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally posted by RE3
| Quote: | Originally posted by show-n-goh2o
Do people really think that one mistake should cost these guy's their career? Thats pretty harsh. |
In this case, yep! May be harsh but some how we need to hold people accountable for what they do. Again, IMHO they made a CHOICE to do something other
than their job, got caught and therefore need to acknowlege what they did wrong and accept the consequences for their actions. Unavoidable accidents
or mistakes are one thing. Conscious choices are another whole issue, IMHO.... |
Actually, I agree here with RE3. There has to be a good reason for other pilots to NOT allow this while they are PIC (pilot in command). A slap on the
wrist will not suffice in this case. License should be revoked and never issued again.
Squak is also correct. These guys usually only carry the legally required fuel plus an extra margin for safety. They do not fill up the tanks after
each flight since that is just extra weight to be carried around. These guys were probably into their extra fuel required by the regs.
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Pourme
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| posted on 11-2-2009 at 03:48 PM |
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Technology already exists if the companies would spend the money to on it. Some trucks already have technology in them that can pick up eye blinks of
the driver. If they don't happen, become excessive, slow, etc then alarms go off alerting the driver they are slipping inot a nap.
The handle on the trains you talk about is called the "deadmans" handle. If they don't trip it every so often the alerts go off, etc and the
train can be stopped remotely. My father is and engineer / conducter for CSX. The fear in a train was not sleep but if the engineer had a heart
attack, etc thus the name deadmans handle or switch.
I like all boats I see and some people I meet!
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